PDA

View Full Version : Playstation3 announced


Gamos
17 May 2005, 07:39
Los Angeles, CALIF., May 16, 2005 - At a press conference held in Los Angeles, California, today, Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. (SCEI) revealed the outline of its PLAYSTATION 3 (PS3) computer entertainment system, incorporating the world's most advanced Cell processor with super computer like power. Prototypes of PS3 will also be showcased at the Electronic Entertainment Expo (E3), the world's largest interactive entertainment exhibition held in Los Angeles, from May 18th to 20th. PS3 combines state-of-the-art technologies featuring Cell, a processor jointly developed by IBM, Sony Group and Toshiba Corporation, graphics processor (RSX) co-developed by NVIDIA Corporation and SCEI, and XDR memory developed by Rambus Inc. It also adopts BD-ROM (Blu-ray Disc ROM) with maximum storage capacity of 54 GB (dual layer) , enabling delivery of entertainment content in full high-definition (HD) quality, under a secure environment made possible through the most advanced copyright protection technology. To match the accelerating convergence of digital consumer electronics and computer technology, PS3 supports high quality display in resolution of 1080p as standard, which is far superior to 720p/1080i.

With an overwhelming computing power of 2 teraflops, entirely new graphical expressions that have never been seen before will become possible. In games, not only will movement of characters and objects be far more refined and realistic, but landscapes and virtual worlds can also be rendered in real-time, thereby elevating the freedom of graphics expression to levels not experienced in the past. Gamers will literally be able to dive into the realistic world seen in large screen movies and experience the excitement in real-time.

In 1994, SCEI launched the original PlayStation (PS), followed by PlayStation 2 (PS2) in 2000 and PlayStation Portable (PSP) in 2004, every time introducing the latest advancement in technology and bringing innovation to the interactive entertainment software creation. Over 13,000 titles have been developed by now, creating a software market that sells more than 250 million copies annually. PS3 offers backward compatibility enabling gamers to enjoy these enormous assets from PS and PS2 platforms.

PlayStation family of products are sold in more than 120 countries and regions around the world. With cumulative shipments reaching more than 102 million for PS and approximately 89 million for PS2, they are the undisputed leaders and have become the standard platform for home entertainment. After 12 years from the introduction of the original PS and 6 years from the launch of PS2, SCEI brings PS3, the newest platform with the most advanced next generation computer entertainment technology.

With the delivery of Cell based development tools that has already begun, development of game titles as well as tools and middleware are in progress. Through collaboration with world's leading tools and middleware companies, SCEI will offer full support to new content creation by providing developers with extensive tools and libraries that will bring out the power of the Cell processor and enable efficient software development.

Preparations are under way for launch of PS3 and new generation software in the spring of 2006. 1080p/720p/1080i: "p" stands for progressive scan method, "i" stands for interlace method. 1080p is the highest resolution within the HD standard.

"SCEI has continuously brought innovation to the world of computer entertainment, such as real-time 3D computer graphics on PlayStation and the world's first 128 bit processor Emotion Engine (EE) for PlayStation 2. Empowered by the Cell processor with super computer like performance, a new age of PLAYSTATION 3 is about to begin. Together with content creators from all over the world, SCEI will accelerate the arrival of a new era in computer entertainment." Ken Kutaragi, President and CEO, Sony Computer Entertainment Inc..

Supporting comments from third party developers and publishers (In alphabetical order of company name)

"With the new generation PlayStation platform, we can create "GUNDAM WORLD" with the quality no one has ever imagined. The philosophy, connecting millions of Cell together, makes reality get closer to the world of SF films. We are delighted to share the vision of Ken, ARCHITECT, Kutaragi." Shin Unozawa, Managing Director, Leader, Game Software Group, President, Video Game Company, BANDAI CO.,LTD.

"The PLAYSTATION 3 has us really excited! So much so in fact that we are already working our hardest to get Devil May Cry 4 out for this new platform. New hardware always yields more options for developers to create exciting and fresh gameplay experiences. I believe that the PS3 is one piece of hardware that will test the mettle of our development team and help us to create some of the most amazing games, limited only by our imagination." Keiji Inafune, Managing Executive Officer, Research & Development Division, Capcom Co., Ltd.

"Each generation of PlayStation has made a dramatic improvement in how we create and play videogames. PLAYSTATION 3 will be a breakthrough in how the world experiences entertainment. EA is fully aligned with Sony Computer Entertainment - we share their vision and applaud their success. " Larry Probst, Chairman and CEO, Electronic Arts

"President Kutaragi has thrown down a gauntlet. That gauntlet is called the PLAYSTATION 3. We here at Koei have gladly taken up the challenge, and are striving day and night to take full advantage of all the PS3's new possibilities. Our goal is to combine cutting-edge technology with a full range of artistic expression to deliver the ultimate form of entertainment, and please people everywhere." Keiko Erikawa, Chairman & C.E.O., KOEI Co., Ltd.

"With the arrival of the next generation computer entertainment system PLAYSTATION 3, I believe it will be possible for graphic expressions, more beautiful than before, to coexist with more deep and evolved game play which utilize the Cell architecture. I also have high expectations for the evolution by the online features that will be enhanced. We will utilize the features of the new platform and will strive to create contents that will bring new excitement for our users world wide, so please have high hopes for Konami. " Kazumi Kitaue, CEO, Konami Digital Entertainment, Inc

"Each time SCEI launches a console, the video games business moves to the next level. With PLAYSTATION 3 it looks as if it might be time for interactive entertainment to become, finally, the world's dominant artistic medium. " Sam Houser, President, Rockstar Games (Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc.)

"We at Namco have used and will continue to use the advancements in audio-visual technology to deliver games that are not only appealing to the eyes and ears, but that stir emotions, speak to the heart, and remain in players' minds for years to come. We are confident that the PLAYSTATION 3 is an entertainment system that will enable us to do just that." Shigeru Yokoyama, CT Company President, Namco Ltd.

Hisao Oguchi, President and Chief Operating Officer, SEGA Corporation "Next-generation hardware platforms will enable SEGA to create new game concepts that offer more immersive interactive experiences. SEGA continues to pursue the fusion of creativity and technology by publishing only the best, more innovative content to gamers around the world."

Yoichi Wada, President, SQUARE ENIX CO., LTD. "Square Enix is extremely honored to have had the chance to provide you with this technical demonstration of what the Cell processor can bring to the PLAYSTATION 3 and the world of gaming. We are committed to fully backing SCEI's new computer entertainment system and plans to bring the FINAL FANTASY series to the PS3 are just beyond the horizon."

Yves Guillemot, President and CEO, Ubisoft "Ubisoft was one of the first major international developers to have its teams start focusing on next generation consoles. We are looking forward to developing outstanding games on Sony Computer Entertainment Inc.'s new system. Its powerful features will help take the industry to an even higher level in the very near future."

PLAYSTATION 3 Specifications


Product name - PLAYSTATION 3
CPU Cell Processor PowerPC-base Core @3.2GHz
1 VMX vector unit per core
512KB L2 cache
7 x SPE @3.2GHz
7 x 128b 128 SIMD GPRs
7 x 256KB SRAM for SPE * 1 of 8 SPEs reserved for redundancy total floating point performance : 218 GFLOPS
GPU RSX @550MHz 1.8 TFLOPS floating point performance Full HD (up to 1080p) x 2 channels Multi-way programmable parallel floating point shader pipelines
Sound Dolby 5.1ch, DTS, LPCM, etc. (Cell-base processing)
Memory 256MB XDR Main RAM @3.2GHz 256MB GDDR3 VRAM @700MHz
System Bandwidth Main RAM 25.6GB/s VRAM 22.4GB/s RSX 20GB/s (write) + 15GB/s (read) SB 2.5GB/s (write) + 2.5GB/s (read)
System Floating Point Performance 2 TFLOPS
Storage HDD Detachable 2.5" HDD slot x 1
I/O USB Front x 4, Rear x 2 (USB2.0) Memory Stick standard/Duo, PRO x 1 SD standard/mini x 1 CompactFlash (Type I, II) x 1
Communication Ethernet (10BASE-T, 100BASE-TX, 1000BASE-T) x 3 (input x 1 + output x 2) Wi-Fi IEEE 802.11 b/g Bluetooth Bluetooth 2.0 (EDR)
Controller Bluetooth (up to 7) USB2.0 (wired) Wi-Fi (PSP) Network (over IP)
AV Output Screen size 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p HDMI HDMI out x 2 Analog AV MULTI OUT x 1 Digital audio DIGITAL OUT (OPTICAL) x 1
Disc media read only CD PlayStation CD-ROM PlayStation 2 CD-ROM CD-DA CD-DA (ROM), CD-R, CD-RW SACD SACD Hybrid (CD layer), SACD HD DualDisc DualDisc (audio side),DualDisc DVD side) DVD PlayStation 2 DVD-ROM PLAYSTATION 3 DVD-ROM DVD-Video DVD-ROM, DVD-R, DVD-RW, DVD+R, DVD+RW Blu-ray Disc PLAYSTATION 3 BD-ROM BD-Video BD-ROM, BD-R, BD-RE
Not mentioned above is that the PSP will wirelessly act as a remote control.

Update: Other info from the conference:



Gameplay footage from the following shown:

Devil May Cry 4 -- Capcom
Fifth Phantom Saga -- Sega
Final Fantasy VII CGI scene recreated in real-time (new Final Fantasy game for PS3 confirmed) - Square Enix
Formula One -- Sony Liverpool
Heavenly Sword -- Sony
Killing Day -- Ubisoft
Killzone 2 -- Guerilla
Metal Gear Solid 4 -- Konami
Mobile Suit Gundam -- Bandai
Motor Storm -- Evolution
Oh-Ni -- Koei
PYEdentify Voice Recognition Game -- SCEA
Spider-Man PS3 -- Unknown
Super Gory Wolfensdtein Style FPS -- Insomniac
Tekken 6 -- Namco.
Unreal Tournament 2007 -- Epic
Untitled Old West Game -- Rockstar
Vision Gran Turismo -- Polyphony Digital
Warhawk -- Incognito

The next Grand Theft Auto will be a launch title.

http://ve3dmedia.ign.com/ve3d/image/article/614/614652/playstation-3-info-from-live-conference-20050516044521960.jpg

http://ve3dmedia.ign.com/ve3d/image/article/614/614652/playstation-3-revealed-launching-spring-06-images-20050516065732347.jpg

Gamos
17 May 2005, 07:41
Well coloured me impressed. Despite the odd looking controller, the actual unit is much more appealing than the Xbox360 IMO.

Be sure to visit ve3d.com for a heap of sceenshots of games.

Now we just wait to see what Nintendo has in store for us :)

|sAvAgE|
17 May 2005, 08:08
the PS3 itself: http://www.zen37351.zen.co.uk/ps3.jpg

new controller: http://img59.echo.cx/img59/5903/050517i7rh.jpg

Shrimp
17 May 2005, 08:15
!!!!

The machine looks l33t!! The control looks a bit odd though :P. But I suppose since everyone's been copying the Dual Shock designs Sony had to come up with something new ;).

Gameplay footage from the following shown:

* Metal Gear Solid 4 -- Konami
* Unreal Tournament 2007 -- Epic
* Vision Gran Turismo -- Polyphony Digital

Woooaaahh!!!

Shrimp
17 May 2005, 08:24
http://gamespot.com/news/2005/05/16/news_6124995.html

VirtualForce
17 May 2005, 09:13
Gamos, I worry about your addiction to cosoles.... :P

Thallium
17 May 2005, 09:40
*drool*

VirtualForce
17 May 2005, 09:56
wonder what it'll cost...

Gamos
17 May 2005, 10:03
Nope, I am just a tech geek. :)

<A>FluX.v2.0
17 May 2005, 10:09
I still want an Xbox360.

:D

<A>BioGizzard
17 May 2005, 10:25
wonder what it'll cost...

'n arm en 'n been

of die prys van 'n goeie tweede handse karretjie

Gamos
17 May 2005, 10:32
Nope, rumoured $399 like the PS2 before it and the PS1 before that.

Remember, they sell these things at a loss and make it up with game royaltees.

VirtualForce
17 May 2005, 11:00
In that case, sign me up for one PS3 and Rachel Bilson!

GunJitsu
17 May 2005, 12:29
Charge It!!!!!

-=BeLgaRiOn=-
17 May 2005, 12:41
Hell ye!

Shrimp
17 May 2005, 12:57
w00ties

I just watched the 1h50 presentation, and I'm pomped for some PS3 action :D :D :D.

[B.Inc]=_sNaKe_=
17 May 2005, 12:57
Once again, Sony for teh win!!!!!!!!! MGS4!!!! BWAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!:D:D:D:D:D

[B.Inc]=_sNaKe_=
17 May 2005, 13:05
Gamos, u got the link for those vids? Or were those videos for special ppl nly?

Shrimp
17 May 2005, 13:17
The only problem I see with MGS4 is that Hideo Kojima isn't going to be working on it :(.

Shrimp
17 May 2005, 13:19
As for the press conference vids (includes snippits of GT5 and some Unreal Engine 3 tech on PS3!): http://www.gamespot.com/e3/e3live.html

Scroll down to the Sony Computer Entertainment Press Conference banner and click on the words "Watch It!"

[B.Inc]=_sNaKe_=
17 May 2005, 13:23
I think hes not going to be "directing" it, as he seems to be fond of plastering over his games, but he will be overseeing from afar... Besides, he also said that after MGS2 there would be no more MGS. Thx 4 the link

Gamos
17 May 2005, 13:25
Also check out www.gametrailers.com for some trailers.

I must admit, I am having an increasingly hard time caring about the Xbox360. From the lacklustre MTV unveiling, to the PDZ screenshot disaster, to the bland E3 conference...

I guess I'll have a shiny new PS3 standing tall right next to my X360 huh? :P

Scrye
17 May 2005, 14:44
Well coloured me impressed. Despite the odd looking controller, the actual unit is much more appealing than the Xbox360 IMO.

Be sure to visit ve3d.com for a heap of sceenshots of games.

Now we just wait to see what Nintendo has in store for us :)


Nothing beats the GameCube controller.

And if you disagree with me I hate you and we can have a flame war.

Scrynaugh
17 May 2005, 14:47
I won't be lying if I'd say that nobody hates you

Zyron
17 May 2005, 14:47
I disagree with you Scyre.

Nothing beats the keyboard + mouse controller combo :nana:

Gamos
17 May 2005, 14:49
I never played a cube so sorry, I am flame retardent. :)

PS - download Killzone2 trailer from Gamespot.com/e3, it makes Halo2 and Half-Life2 look kinda silly.

[B.Inc]=_sNaKe_=
17 May 2005, 14:51
Probably the only good thing about the cube is its controller...

VirtualForce
17 May 2005, 14:53
Zyron (http://member.php?u=36), that dancing girl is really well done, I dont like your posts cuz I sit a min just looking at the girl do her moves. :p

Also, consoles kinda tick me off with them prices being R100 to R200 more than PC games. :(

Thallium
17 May 2005, 15:14
PS - download Killzone2 trailer from Gamespot.com/e3, it makes Halo2 and Half-Life2 look kinda silly.

OMG!!:eek:

Watching that Killzone 2 demo almost made me cry.

I'm selling everything i own, Who wants to buy something??

As soon as that PS3 monster hits the shelves, I'm buying one!!

[B.Inc]=_sNaKe_=
17 May 2005, 15:34
Pity the UT2007 vid consisted of a fat dork telling me things I knew already & moving screens of what we've already seen.Is there somewhere I can see actual *moving* footage of the engine (Other than that 1sy video released last year)?

Shrimp
17 May 2005, 15:41
The 38'th minute of the Sony Press Conference ;)

Scrye
17 May 2005, 16:37
I won't be lying if I'd say that nobody hates you

People hate me because of what i say on a forum? That's fucking pathetic.

Oh, and another thing, maybe show some balls by posting on your proper nick? kthx.

JKR
17 May 2005, 16:50
Excellent!

|sAvAgE|
17 May 2005, 18:16
Probably the only good thing about the cube is its controller...
how typical. i suggest you get a cube & find out first hand about the machine & its AWESOME game library. by get a cube i dont mean buy a cube, by mario party or mario sunshine & say ooooh kiddie stuff. i mean, buy the cube, buy some games and if they're single player do some serious PLAYING, if they're multiplayer (mario party, mario kart) get some buddies & play them & THEN ONLY tell me the cube is not up to scratch.

btw, we're talking 1st party titles or exclusive titles only.

keep in mind children, i am in no way dissing the Playstation line, it definately has some gems on it and they most definately ROCK, but its not the ONLY FUCKING CONSOLE IN THE WORLD and if you dont understand anything about the term "gameplay" then perhaps you should just stick to your beloved PS/PS2 and pay no attention to my ramblings above.

JKR
17 May 2005, 18:18
yeah my 5 year old cousin has a GC and loves it!

/JKR runs

MaXimus
17 May 2005, 18:56
I never really liked consoles before (apart when they truly were much better than PC's), but after watching that PS3 Press Conference I'm absolutely blown away! Savage, go and watch the video, if your not impressed then I'll buy you a case of beers.

Gamos
17 May 2005, 21:05
Mark Rein (on the Ve3d.com forums
----------------------------------------------

In addition to the Sony demos being shown by Phil Harrison, the Epic and EA presentations were the only third party portions actually running on the PS3 in real-time. But most of those movies, which I probably watched 3 or 4 during rehearsals for the event, look very achievable and some were probably rendered on the actual box but in non-real-time. When a system is year away, heck even with a system is 6 months away, it is reasonable to expect the power of the dev kits would still only be a fraction of the power of the final system.


I know we'll certainly be able to achieve much more on the final box than we were able to show in our demo after working with the early dev kit for only ~2 months. As Tim mentioned our demo only really showed off the power of RSX and then still we're talk about an RSX that's nowhere near as fast as the final one will be. When we get home from E3 we'll also start diving seriously into the power of the cell processor. This is a very powerful system!

Sony's cell demos were extremely cool and inspiring but are totally achievable, and over time even surpassable, by third developers like us because, as Tim Sweeney said, the development environment is made up of parts we're already intimately familiar with: OpenGL, NVIDIA graphics, Linux, and PowerPC. Think about Epic's experience, for example. We rock on NVIDIA hardware. We have been doing OpenGL since Unreal1. We regularly ship our games on Linux and we've won several Macintosh Game of the Year awards including a special World-Wide Design Award directly from Apple for UT2004. We're going to be able to kick serious ass on PS3, and so are a lot of our licensees and other 3rd party developers, in a way that wasn't remotely possible on past consoles.

I should add that we're in a similar position for XBOX360. It's also made up of parts we're intimately familiar with.

My point is that developers are going to be able to get SO MUCH MORE power out of these consoles than they ever could in the past and so much closer to the raw power of the components.

The next generation is just going to be AMAZING!!! Next gen games will be a huge leap forward over current gen.
Can you tell I'm excited?
-------------------------------

Mmmm, it is all fake. Much like the NFL2006 demo EA showcased some weeks back. We are on the verge of having cut-scene like graphics in game, and thus becoming harder to tell what is real and what not. Killzone2 blew me away, but so did the Final Fantasy and Blizzard cutscenes many many years ago. There is no telling what developers choose to showcase is real or simply pre-rendered artist impressions.

Dissapointed!

MaXimus
17 May 2005, 21:12
Even though the Unreal Engine 3 might be only one of the few realtime render demonstrations, it really proved what can be achieved. We are in for some very exciting times! Whats also really impressive is the new PS3 "Leaves" demonstration and the duck in the water demonstration. Hectic freeken stuff man! :D

[B.Inc]=_sNaKe_=
18 May 2005, 08:22
keep in mind children, i am in no way dissing the Playstation line, it definately has some gems on it and they most definately ROCK, but its not the ONLY FUCKING CONSOLE IN THE WORLD and if you dont understand anything about the term "gameplay" then perhaps you should just stick to your beloved PS/PS2 and pay no attention to my ramblings above.

Hmm...guess Ill stick wif my PS2 ports of Metal Gear Solid 3 & Gran Turismo 4 then... :D

GunJitsu
18 May 2005, 08:22
It will take PCs a few years to catch up with the PS3 and Xbox360, I just hope they make it adsl router compatible and design a decent mouse for it. Can you guys imagine the kind of CPU a PC would need to emulate a cell processor?

MaXimus
18 May 2005, 08:54
Hell, why don't Sony build a Cell processor compatible with current PC technology (allthough the bus speeds are a serious limitation on PC's compared to the PS3). The PS3 is in all practicallity, a super computer.

[B.Inc]=_sNaKe_=
18 May 2005, 09:31
If Sony could just break into the FPS & RTS franchises (properly) that wud be friggin' cool. I mean, if I could play UT2010 and StarCraft 4 on my PS5, then I really would have no need to expend an excessive amount of money on outlandish graphical & processor upgrades. Basically, Sony should just get a decent mouse & keyboard :D. If this were possible, I think the PC market would lose a LARGE amount of its community, because personally, I prefer playing 3rd Person Adventure Games like Devil May Cry and Metal Gear Solid on the console because it just "feels" better. I prefer racing games like that too. Football (or soccer, for the yanks) games as well. And come on, who really enjoys a good ol beat-em-up more on their PC. The only games I really play on PC are FPS & RTS because they just work better. And, believe it or not, but benchmarks dont interest me. Im only in it for the games.

Thallium
18 May 2005, 10:01
Hell, why don't Sony build a Cell processor compatible with current PC technology (allthough the bus speeds are a serious limitation on PC's compared to the PS3). The PS3 is in all practicallity, a super computer.

Unfortunatily, the cell processor is a Risc [Reduced Instruction Set Computer] from IBM.

Less instruction's than a desktop x86 chip, but highly optimized and much faster (limited) instructions.

I think that cell chip for the PS3 has only the instructions needed for gaming, running at 3.2ghz, i can believe it's capable of over 2 tflops.

Anyway, cell processing will never be available for desktop pc's today. maybe in the distant future.

sneaky
18 May 2005, 10:27
Yeah PS ownz always have always will, no wonder the XBOX never made it in SA. Its not because of late marketing or shipment, they simply realised they will get PWNED.

Terror
18 May 2005, 11:02
Terror pipes up from nowhere: Keyboard and mouse combo rulzzz :) :):):):):):):)

Elco
18 May 2005, 15:28
Ok, so this time, will we pay r600 for a PS3 game ?

Shrimp
18 May 2005, 15:42
But we already do pay that for some PS2 games :P

<A>BioGizzard
18 May 2005, 15:53
ATARI, For teh win!!!!

Zyron
18 May 2005, 16:01
ATARI, For teh win!!!!

I personally liked playing textbook page tennis. You ?

<A>BioGizzard
18 May 2005, 16:04
tanks and centipede

hai2u
18 May 2005, 20:44
I find the most interesting thing the implementation of Blue-Ray Disks - I think this is probably one of the bigest technological leaps we've seen in storage in quite a while.

MaXimus
18 May 2005, 20:48
Certainly, game content is going to grow tremendously, so the 50GB of space is going to come in very handy.

Elco
18 May 2005, 23:02
I really don't mean to burst the bubble here, but:

game content is going to grow tremendously

will likely be amazing graphics, and crap gameplay.

hai2u
19 May 2005, 00:38
Hearsay.

Gozzy
19 May 2005, 00:53
hmmm ok who wnats to buy a playstation 2 then ? :)

gizzlo
19 May 2005, 01:32
mmmm no thx have one.

MaXimus
19 May 2005, 01:33
Elco, regardless of whether a game is good or bad, by game content I mean things like textures, shaders and sound. They get physically larger the more detailed they get. So the games get bigger and bigger and hence require more disc space.

Gamos
19 May 2005, 07:34
I'll be surprised if any game fills a 50Gb disk in the PS3's lifetime. They will always use compression, no matter the media.

[B.Inc]=_sNaKe_=
19 May 2005, 08:07
True, Gamos. Id actually like to see how much of a 50GB disc can be filled. I mean, the biggest PC game around today (I think) is UT2004, which is a whopping 5 GB, and thats mainly due to the number of maps. Granted the newer textures an shit are gona be huge, but 50gb? Nah... Sides, I hope they dont try and fill the discs up with 18 variations of Deck27, like in the old 1000-in-1 days, where we ALL thought we were getting 1000 games, but had to settle for 8. :(

MaXimus
19 May 2005, 08:29
Hehehe Snake, you are saying the same thing Bill Gates said back in the 80's about 640KB RAM should be enough for everyone. The textures on these new games could be up to 4 times (possibly even more) larger than todays large textures. Now take a game like UT2K4 and multiply its size by 4 and you are already sitting at 20GB (I know it's a rough estimate but you should get my point). Now considering that the PS3 can also handle way more shaders than any PC hardware can it's going to take up even more space. 50GB should be enough yes, but it's going to be filled, you'll see.

|sAvAgE|
19 May 2005, 08:59
MGS2: Substance is 7 odd GB.

Gamos
19 May 2005, 09:03
Maximus, your maths are a bit flawed boet. Textures is what will be the main space hogging culprit, but UT's 5Gig is certainly not only made up of textures. Maps, sounds, Engine code, Models etc. will stay static, and only the textures part of that 5Gb will grow, and by 4x? That is pushing it!
There is no maths you can apply to get to 20Gb in that scenario.

The only thing I can reasonably think off, is 'the making off' features on games, in full DVD quality. Kinda like current DVD special features. Either that or the dreaded return of green-screen games!

MaXimus
19 May 2005, 09:56
Man oh man. For sure Gamos, I just didn't want to get into the gory details, I just tried to get my point through. At the end of the day I'm willing to bet on the fact that the 50GB is not going to seem so super large in the near future. My UT directory alone is currently sitting over 13GB and my Steam folder over 8.5GB, and by now, those are games using yesterday's technology. I'm trying to say that Blueray is great and that it is needed. Eish, I made the mistake again of giving an opinion on UnrealZA. :(

Shrimp
19 May 2005, 09:58
Models and maps will by no stretch of the imagination remain anywhere the size they are currently.

Remember, for example, UE3 uses character models with MILLIONS of polygons, where UT2004 is probably averaging about 4000-5000 per character. The amount of geometry and detail in maps is also going to skyrocket. We can already see in some of the screenies from UT2007 the meshes in levels are very detailed. Not only are they more detailed, but you can add a lot more of them, increasing the size of the maps.

On top of that, maps will have high detail shadow mapping, with accurate shadows being cast from each of these now much higher detail level meshes. That lighting takes up a huge amount of space (if you pump up the lighting detail in a UT2004 map and save it, you can easily make even a simple map's size go through the roof). Even if UE3 were to use the current shadow detail levels, it'll still be an insane amount of shadow data thanks to all the extra polygons and level detail...

Shrimp
19 May 2005, 10:01
Whoops.

MaXimus
19 May 2005, 10:11
Thx for the technical details Shrimp, so you agree that games are going to become insanely large in the near future?

Look at the difference between UT99 maps and UT2K4 alone, DM-Deck16 in UT99 is about 850KB in size, in UT2K4 it's size has grown to over 10MB, thats more than 10 times the size!

We are having the same technological leap between the DirectX8 based UT2K4 and the next gen PS3 games.

enemyanemone
19 May 2005, 10:45
What do you guys want from the next UT? Graphics is one thing, but most ppl turn it down anyway.
So gameplay-wise, if you where a developer, what would you change or add? I cant think of anything that could make it better. (except to lock the ini´s somehow to stop ppl from editing it so much that you are forced to do it too in order to still be able to compete (rolloff, ambient sounds etc.))
So whats the point of a next UT?

Gamos
19 May 2005, 10:50
Granted Shrimp, but just remember that those million polygon models aren't what you see on screen. Normal mapping is a very efficient technique to make average models represent those multi-million trianle models.

To quote the unrealtechnology site:

Most of our characters are built from two meshes: a realtime mesh with thousands of triangles, and a detail mesh with millions of triangles. We provide a distributed-computing application which raytraces the detail mesh and, from its high-polygon geometry, generates a normal map that is applied to the realtime mesh when rendering. The result is in-game objects with all of the lighting detail of the high poly mesh, but that are still easily rendered in real time.

Just over 5000 polys in game mesh:
http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/character_creation2.jpg (http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/character_creation2.jpg)

The 2 million poly high detail mesh:
http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/character_creation1.jpg (http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/character_creation1.jpg)

The normal mapped result:
http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/character_creation3.jpg (http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/character_creation3.jpg)

A normal mapped scene done with a 100 million polys:
http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/EmbryHigh.jpg

But actually contain only half a mill (0.5% of the original)
http://www.unrealtechnology.com/screens/EmbryWire.jpg

We will not see a 100 million triangle scene redenered in realtime for a long time still.

From Unrealtechnology:
-----------------------------
Characters

For every major character and static mesh asset, we build two versions of the geometry: a renderable mesh with unique UV coordinates, and a detail mesh containing only geometry. We run the two meshes through the Unreal Engine 3 preprocessing tool and generate a high-res normal map for the renderable mesh, based on analyzing all of the geometry in the detail mesh.




Renderable Mesh: We build renderable meshes with 3,000-12,000 triangles, based on the expectation of 5-20 visible characters in a game scene.
Detail Mesh: We build 1-8 million triangle detail meshes for typical characters. This is quite sufficient for generating 1-2 normal maps of resolution 2048x2048 per character.
Bones: The highest LOD version of our characters typically have 100-200 bones, and include articulated faces, hands, and fingers.
Normal Maps & Texture maps

We are authoring most character and world normal maps and texture maps at 2048x2048 resolution. We feel this is a good target for games running on mid-range PC's in the 2006 timeframe. Next-generation consoles may require reducing texture resolution by 2X, and low-end PC's up to 4X, depending on texture count and scene complexity. Environments

Typical environments contain 1000-5000 total renderable objects, including static meshes and skeletal meshes. For reasonable performance on current 3D cards, we aim to keep the number of visible objects in any given scene to 300-1000 visible objects. Our larger scenes typically peak at 500,000 to 1,500,000 rendered triangles. Lights

There are no hardcoded limits on light counts, but for performance we try to limit the number of large-radius lights affecting large scenes to 2-5, as each light/object interaction pair is costly due to the engine's high-precision per-pixel lighting and shadowing pipeline. Low-radius lights used for highlights and detail lighting on specific objects are significantly less costly than lights affecting the full scene.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, that is deviating from the point a bit (going more into rendering), but the next gen consoles will do nothing PC of 2006 wouldn't be able to if I can be optomistic. 2007 and WGF2.0/Longhorn will certainly see the day PCs match even the PS3's mighty cell processor and GPUs will long have evolved beyond ATI R520/ nVidia G70 spec. To tell me games between now and a year from now will grow from 5Gb to 50Gb, is pushing it!

Thallium
19 May 2005, 11:57
2007 and WGF2.0/Longhorn will certainly see the day PCs match even the PS3's mighty cell processor

I'm not too sure about that, Pc's in 2006/07 will still be stuck on x86 technology. Risc systems cannot be outclassed by x86 systems.

Intel Itanium2 processors are still sitting around the Billion flops. i can say no higher than 20 billion flops.. there is still a long way before any x86 processor running on its own will even reach 1Tflop.

It's actually unfair to compare an x86 chip with a risc chip, they both work in completely different ways.

On the PS2, the same game is far bigger on the dvd than the PC version, cause as far as i know the PS2 format does not really have compression. and i'm sure the PS3 wont really have compression either, otherwise loading would be drastically slower.

I'm sure they will be reaching High numbers of gig's on those disks.

Anyway, just my 2cent's

Gamos
19 May 2005, 12:44
Thallium, that is exactly what I am after actually. So the console disks does actually contain the uncompressed game? Much like the installation on HDD would? If so, that is a very worrying trend. Although I doubt we will soon see 50Gb, the 8Gb limit of dual layer DVD might be inefficient 4 years from now.

As for the Risc/x86 based processing, I am not convinced. Those terraflop numbers they toss around is more marketing speak than actual real performance. You will still be limited by the extend of your graphics hardware. Put a Geforce2 into a AthlonFX55 box for instance. No matter how fast that processor is, you will still only get Geforce2 graphics and perfomance bottleneck because of the card.

The PS3 has a G70 nVidia GPU. That is the same G70 that will be launched for PC next month. Granted it underwent modification for the console, but it is not unlike the NV20 that went into the Xbox1 and became the Geforce4 for PC not long afterwards.

The thing that keep consoles competitive with PC is definately not their major CPU, but the fact that developers have no need to fall back to lesser hardware. You code every inch of performance out of a single hardware spec. That is the reason a 700Mhz/Geforce3/64Mb Ram Xbox1 can still hold its own against today's top PCs. The new consoles will no doubt feature better looking games again, but once they reach their half-life period, PCs will once again take over. Remember, we are also moving into a duel-core scenario soon, and with next-next gen cards (R600/NV60), it is doubtfull that the Cell/Risc will be the saving factor for the consoles.

Just my opinion.

Zyron
19 May 2005, 13:06
So Gamos...

what you are trying to say is that PC > Console ? :clap:

Gamos
19 May 2005, 13:14
Apples and Oranges :)

[B.Inc]=_sNaKe_=
19 May 2005, 13:32
MGS2: Substance is 7 odd GB.

Duh...*slaps forehead* And I own this game :D

[B.Inc]=_sNaKe_=
19 May 2005, 13:34
Hehehe Snake, you are saying the same thing Bill Gates said back in the 80's about 640KB RAM should be enough for everyone. The textures on these new games could be up to 4 times (possibly even more) larger than todays large textures. Now take a game like UT2K4 and multiply its size by 4 and you are already sitting at 20GB (I know it's a rough estimate but you should get my point). Now considering that the PS3 can also handle way more shaders than any PC hardware can it's going to take up even more space. 50GB should be enough yes, but it's going to be filled, you'll see.

I hate it when smarter people exist :P

VirtualForce
19 May 2005, 13:55
STOP KILING MY BANDWIDTH G`DAMNIT!!! :eek:

Sheeesh Gamos, if its porn, fine but I have seen this many times before! ;) :p

Gamos
19 May 2005, 14:30
I'm trying to get all you adsl okes capped to get inline with the Telkom hate of the other thread :)

I was merely demonstrating my slightly off-topic point :)

MaXimus
19 May 2005, 17:01
Hehehehe. :)

Gamos, I'm well aware of Unreal Engine's normal mapping technology, but a 5000 poly model is still twice the size of a UT2K4's character model, which comprises of around 2000 to 2500 polys. Another reason why consoles used to be so good with such teenie little CPU's is that they had to show very low detail textures since TV's are so low res and blurrie. However, the PS3 supports high definition TV's and computer monitors so it's going to increase it's texture sizes tremendously to take advantage of that.

Gamos
19 May 2005, 17:53
Isn't UT2004 models at 5K already?

MaXimus
19 May 2005, 18:51
UT99 used to run at about 800 polygons per character. I remember reading somewhere that UT2K3/K4 polys are around 2000 to 2500, but just googalized and saw someone saying between 3000 and 3500.

[N]Haja
19 May 2005, 19:50
and then we go run utcomp, to get it back to 1 polygon :P

MaXimus
19 May 2005, 21:01
ROFL! And a bright one too :)

MaXimus
20 May 2005, 08:38
Jeez:

TDK does 100 GB capacity Blu-ray discs
According to a Macworld report today, TDK Interactive has developed a new Blu-ray Disc that can hold twice as much information and record at twice the speed of existing dual-layer Blu-ray Discs. The previous record was around 54GB.
Macworld explains that the 100 GB Blu-ray Discs are made using four layers, with each layer on a Blu-ray Disc being capable of storing 25 GB. Although the four-layer process has not yet been standardized by the Blu-ray Association, it gives Sony's Blu-ray format an edge over Toshiba's rival HD-DVD format, which so far has topped out with a three-layer, 45 GB disc.
Last month it seemed that a rumored compromise would end the war between the two formats vying to be the next industry standard for disc-based media storage, but both Sony and Toshiba put an end to those rumors a little over a week ago. Blu-ray is backed by Sony, and will be the media for games on the PlayStation 3.

Source: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/05/19/news_6125979.html

VirtualForce
24 May 2005, 07:28
OMW, after seeing the Killzone 2 vid I want a PS3!!!
mmm....does the PS3 come with a mouse? Cuz I'm a cripple with the control pad :P

sneaky
24 May 2005, 10:29
Local PS3 and XBOX360 E3 preview trailers available at AnimeworX

http://www.animeworx.co.za/download.php

Man PS3 is going to be the bees knees, very impresive